the sound of reddi wip is the sound of joy. wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing. eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. all right, disrupters, here we go. she has made a career out of disrupting the status quo. coming up, my exclusive interview with house leader nancy pelosi. that's next. >> i love disrupters. and i'm a disrupter. that's great. >> you got 30 seconds. >> i don't think so. among those on the republican side are those who are anti-government idealogues. they cannot wag this dog.

i believe we should be able to reach a budget by thanks giving. >> if hillary: listen does run, she'll be one of the best prepared people and she will win i believe if she runs. >> the time is now. ♪ she was an american girl congresswoman nancy pelosi is the definition of a disrupter. in 2007, she became the first female speaker of the u.s. house of representatives. now she leads the most diverse caucus in american history. she was recently inducted into the women's hall of fame in seneca falls, new york. she's a big believer in the power of chocolate ice cream. but there will be more on that later. i'm honored to welcome house democratic leader nancy pelosi to "disrupt." thank you so much for being with me. >> thank you, karen. my pleasure to be here. >> i want to start with the budget. we know budget meetings began.

>> yes. >> on friday, 47 million people were pushed over the food stamp cliff. when you look at what paul ryan wants to do, he wants to cut even more. how are democrats going to be able to stop him from doing that. >> i believe transparency and a clear view of what the budget choices are will get us the best result. we are in a situation that cannot be -- we cannot repueat what we just went through, a government shutdown. or the fear of default above full faith and credit. it's really important to note that before the shutdown, house democrats said to the speaker, we'll give you 100% of our votes to avoid a shutdown. we don't like the bill. the bill was the republican house bill. that's what they offered senator reid. he accepted it. that's what they offered president obama. he accepted it. we accepted it. the only people that didn't accept the house republican budget number were the house republican members. so we could have avoided that. every day we would go out to the steps, to the floor, in letters

and all the rest, 200 members signing, open up -- first, don't shut down. then, open up. but it's important to note that when we did finally open up, over 60% of the republican caucus voted to stay shut down and to default. over 60%. 144 republicans voted no on opening up government and ending the default threat. so that's really important. that's what we're facing when we go to the budget table. >> do we think that that has bolstered paul ryan in terms of his position and feeling that he is imboldin -- emboldened in hi desire for more cuts and now we're hearing this question of whether or not revenues will be on the table. >> first of all, it's important to note paul ryan voted to keep the government shut down and to default on the full faith and credit. he did not vote to open up government if that tells you anything. i hope it didn't embolden him because i think the american people registered their negative attitudes toward shutting down

government and defaulting on the full faith and credit. but, nonetheless, we go to the table. we want to create growth. create jobs. that's what brings revenue to our treasury. in order to do that, we have to examine to see what other cuts we can make. but there has to be revenue on the table. his budget costs seniors more on medicare and gives tax breaks to millionaires. well, what is that? we want medicare over millionair millionaires. >> seems we would be readjudicating the 2012 election altogether. i want to ask you, in the budget process, i know there was a call. it was reported that yourself and leader reid and a number of others, democratic leaders with the president, kind of all on the same page going into the budget process. and then this week, we read on wednesday that the president has said he is flexible about whether or not revenues can be on the table. and i know you've said revenues need to be on the table.

harry reid has said revenues need to be on the table. are you confident that the president is going to, you know, stay with where the democratic caucus is on that issue? >> i think we'll stay together. if you have revenue on the table, you come to a bigger agreement to reduce the deficit, to grow the economy, to do so in a fiscally sound way. if you don't have revenue on the table, we've cut -- it's important to note that going into this debate they say there should be more cuts. there's been $2.4 trillion in deficit reduction. $600 billion of that has been from the expiration of the high-end bush tax cuts. $600 billion. $1.8 trillion have come from cuts. there's hardly any other place to go but nonetheless subject every federal dollar to scrutiny. cut where you can cut if it's

d duplicative or whatever. do not say we're going to give tax breaks to the wealthy while it makes seniors may more for medicare as it voucherizes medicare. >> do you think in this process there'll be some flexibility on the sequester? i know there have been some who want to just do away with sequester. senator joe manchin and others are looking at can we have more flexibility. what's your position on that? >> if we have sequester we have to have the flexibility. and what senator manchin is putting forth is a reasonable proposal. but we would rather do away with sequestration. because it just cuts so much out of our investments for the future. you have to, as you subject each of these proposals to scrutiny, you have to say, are you saving money by cutting investments in education? you are not. nothing brings more to the treasury. that's what brings revenue to

the treasury. if you cut that, you're increasing the testify sit, not lowering it. again, we have to subject what these proposals are to see what we're getting for them. as far as food stamps are concerned, as you initially asked, you know, there are all these reports now that all these children who have food stamps in your country, in many states over 50%, over states 40%, not like it's great, but kids can't learn if they're not eating. >> that's right. that's, i guess, part of what so many of us are so frustrated ability. jeffrey sachs, economist jeffrey sachs was on with my colleague chris hayes on friday. he couldn't even speak to sort of the numbers and the economic sort of perspective, but the moral perspective. >> of course. >> in this country we've become a country where it's okay to let children go hungry. i think that's where there's some frustration. what can we do as democrats? what will democrats be able to do to stop this? because the republicans have just been unrelenting on this

issue. >> well, they have. and it's hard to understand why. but here's the thing. it is for the greatest country that ever existed in the history of the world that 1 in 4 children should go to sleep hungry at night. that kids go to school unprepared to learn because they haven't been fed. that on weekends even when they get a meal at school, on weekends they are not eating properly or even close to that. but apart from the morality of it, which is really important, if you just appeal to the republicans on the issue of deficit reduction, for every dollar spent on food stamps, there's 1.7 dollars injected into the economy. it's a false economy all around in addition to being an assault on our values as to who we are as a nation. >> i want to read you something that governor romney was on "meet the press" this morning. >> i missed that. i was watching the marathon. >> much better. very predictable what he said. i want to read something he said to you. i think this is part of the

republican message we're really going to hear in 2014. he said, i think that fundamental dishonesty has really put in peril the whole foundation of his second term, speaking about the president. whether you like the model of obama care or not the fact that the president sold it on a basis that was not true has undermined the foundation of his second term. i think it's rotting away. do you think president obama's second term is rotting away. >> no. i think that -- i don't even know why romney was on that show myself. i want to know what about the future. what about the future. the fact is president obama is is president of great vision, great knowledge, great judgment, a strategic thinker. a person whose eloquence attracts people to his point of view. he's referencing, of course, the affordable care act, governor romney is. but the fact is, is that just think of how far we've come. for 100 years people have tried to to have health care available to american people. we accomplished that. presidents and speakers and

congresses have tried and not succeeded. we succeeded with that. it stood the test of every assault in the courts that you can think of upheld by the supreme court. in its first year of imp lemation, whether it's for kids under 26, little children with pre-existing conditions, women, seniors having lower cost for their prescription drugs, free, no co-pay, no deductible on wellness visits, and the rest while strengthening medicare. all of the implementation has gone very well. there's a glitch in the technology. i'll come back to that in a moment. they're saying, well, he said one thing and another. the president said if you like your plan, you can keep it. for 95% of the american people who have health insurance, that is the case. for a small number in the private market, they will do better. they will do better because of the patients bill of rights that's built into our legislation. no pre-existing conditions, no

lifetime limits, no co-pay, all the rest of that. they will do better. 95% of the american people who have health insurance have it through their employer, through medicare/medicaid, veterans administration, and so we're just talking about 5%. significant. but, nonetheless, largely will do much better. for them to grab on to this percentage, on the subject of the glitch, i think it's really important to note that when the president bush passed the prescription part b. >> part d. >> medicare part d bill, for months, like six months or longer, the verdicts were coming in. i have 23 headlines i brought. medicare part d rollout gets an f. medicare rollout not ready for prime time. glitches, glitches, glitches. >> right. >> doing harm. all the rest of that. republicans at the time on their

initiative and that time were saying, that's what happens when you have a new initiative. we think that's what happens when you have a new initiative. this stands with social security, medicare, affordable care act. >> and we've had some fun reminding some of your republican colleagues of what they said then versus what they're saying now. >> thank you. >> also one of the things that struck us this week is that, you know, as the week went on and we learned more about some of the people who had gotten -- in some instances they had other options. they just weren't aware of the other options because the insurance companies certainly were not telling them what their options were. i guess the question i have for you, i spoke with a gop friend of mine who is doing some work for a republican in a tough primary. i think he'll end up having a tough general election. who said i've just cut an ad. he was gleeful about the

prospect of running that ad in support of his candidate. i guess my question is, i agree with you on the glitches. when we're in the 2014 cycle, sit something that -- will democrats be able to run on the issue or is it something that could potentially be a liability for democrats? >> this will be a very -- it's not even -- i don't even think it's a political issue. but for the american people, this will be a giant plus. this family with a child with asthma, no longer will that child be subjected to lifetime limits or annual limits on care. no longer will that child have pre-existing medical condition that will discriminate against him or her later as he or she goes into the insurance market. so for the 100 million people with pre-existing medical condition, this new bill is a god send. and emphasis on "god." >> do you think democrats are going to take back the house in 2014? >> i think democrats can. i always thought we could. but the negative response to republican shutdown, the

reckless, irresponsible behavior of that really has attracted a whole other crop of candidates who are "a" plus candidates into the races. has increased the recruitment, the raising. steve israel, our chairman, has done a remarkable job with recruitment, raising the money. we've outraised, outrecruited and the rest. we're very well prepared. but it's a year away. but we're in a very good position right now. and it would be very important to the country if we could. >> all right. we're going to take a break and then come back if you're willing to stay with us. >> i am. >> we want to talk about the role of women in 2014. >> wonderful. >> so stay with us. we'll be back. i also want to ask, what is it like when john boehner keeps asking for your help? that's coming up. >> congresswoman bachmann put out a statement. she essentially said that the decision today cannot undo god's word. how do you guys react?

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and we're back with house democratic leader nancy pelosi. ic i wanted to talk a little bit about the role of women in 2014. i think it's clear women voters are going to make a huge difference. you look at what's been happening around the country. i know you've been around the country sort of talking with women and talking about an economic agenda for women. it feels like since even the last election women continue to be energized by some of the very restrictive measures that we've seen, you know, from texas. obviously wendy davis has been a great force at galvanizing

women. do you think women are going to -- how do we keep them engaged and activated for the 2014 election? because as you know, mid-term elections we tend to have, you know, high dropoff numbers. >> that's right. women, there's a big difference. as you mentioned the race in virginia, there's a big gender gap in that race. for good reason. because the difference between the policies that terry mcauliffe is putting forth versus the republican, it's drastic. what we did when we went around the country was to listen to women and say, what would make a difference in your lives economically. three things emerged all over the country. one was equal pay. that includes raising the minimum wage. 62% of people getting minimum wage are women. equal pay. pay equity. paid sick leave. very important to women. and child care. this is what we call our when

women succeed, america succeeds. our economic agenda for women and families. if women assume their full rightful place, they -- the gdp will increase up to 3%. it's really important for our economy, not just for women. it's also important for women to know that we are making this fight for them. and i believe that -- i was at radcliff institute for advanced studies the other day. we were celebrating the 50th anniversary of president kennedy signing the fair pay act. raise the minimum wage. pay equity. and child care even to the tune of a federal program as well as tax credits for child care. 50 years later, we're still making that fight. add to that the paid leave that has not evolved to where it should be.

so we think that this changes -- if we want to have women emerge as entrepreneurs and leaders in business, if we want women to take their rightful place, why should a woman work -- now women make 77% of men. that means for the first three months of the year you're working for free compared to your male counterpart performing the same job. in addition to that, in order for this to change the environment, make our own environment, we have to change the political environment as well. which means attract many more women to public service, elective office as well as appointive. >> doesn't it also mean, i think a lot of women feel on some level that our rights are being rolled back. we were having a conversation about access to birth control. access to abortion. we had two very disruptive, destructive decisions this week from the d.c. circuit court on birth control. then in texas. i'd love to get your reaction on those two cases. because, again, i think all of the things you're talking about,

women can't even get to the point where they're able to participate in the economy in that way when they can't even control their own bodies. >> the respect for women, for their judgment, for their role in the workplace, is really all of one piece. affordable care act, no longer will being a woman be a pre-existing medical condition. after much attack the president and those of us who advanced the bill, the law, supported a woman's reproductive opportunities there. it's really important. i hasten to add, because we talked earlier about the over 60% of the republicans in congress voted against the violence against women act. >> right. >> over 60%. they said, we'd be for a bill except we don't want to protect lgbt women, immigrant women and native american women. what is that? who are these people?

over 60% of the republicans voted against -- in the house voted against the violence against women act. this is about respect for who we are, for what our judgment is, what our responsibility is to use our free will. sizing and time of our families. decisions made within our families. not within the courts or the legislatures of some states. >> it struck me that part of the strategy, frankly, on the violence against women act was kind of shaming the republicans into this idea that we would put aside certain categories of women that wouldn't be covered. and i'm wondering, the senate is going to do its first test vote on enda. but the question is will it -- what will happen in the house? what do you think the prospects are in the house? >> let me just say on that subject, as with shutting down government as opening it up as with the immigration bill as with 95% of -- at least 95% of

the democrats are on the legislation and will vote for the legislation. so we only need 10% of the republicans with 95% of the democrats to pass enda in the house. on so many pieces of legislation, overwhelming democratic votes are there for background checks and the gun violence issue. immigration. >> right. >> and opening government and the rest. so we just need a small number of republicans. if these bills were brought to the floor, they would pass. we have five republicans on the enda bill. we have 193 of which five are problems. then we have ten more votes in addition to that on the democratic side. so all we need is maybe 20 republicans and we can pass the bill. >> this point that you make about this question as to -- i think this is maybe where it's going to come down to immigration. will john boehner let it come to the floor? we know that with the cr, he intentionally changed the rules

to make sure that it couldn't get to the floor. which, of course, i suggest the shutdown was all his fault because of that. the question being, you know, how do you get around that? we've actually asked some folks on twitter for questions. a lot of americans just had questions about the hastert rule given it's not a law, per se, and just frustration that the speaker of the house would have that kind of power just to stop the will of the full congress. >> the full congress. well, you reference the violence against women. we made that bill too hot for the republicans to handle. so over 600 days since it expired, finally they brought it to the floor. but not without bringing their bill, which said not unless you are lgbt, native american or immigrant. they voted that way overwhelmingly. they voted against the violence against women act overwhelmingly, democrats voted for it. we would hope that the speaker would, again, do that. now, two days, october 29th was

the one-year anniversary of sandy. 80% of the republicans voted against sandy aid. 80%. and most -- most of the ones who voted for it were from new york, new jersey or pennsylvania. areas that were affected. hopefully the speaker will say, we'll bring the bill to the floor even though 80% of the republicans were against it. 15 -- not 15%, 15 republicans. that would be 3% of republicans voted with us on food stamps. 97% of the republicans voted to cut $40 billion more out of food stamps. so this is an odd group. but we just can't wait around for the hastert rule which isn't a rule. it isn't a rule. it's an excuse. but it's not a reason. >> we have just a couple minutes left. i want to -- two questions i want to ask you. i sort of made it as a joke, how tired are you of john boehner

having to come to you for help, for heaven's sakes? it seems it's the only way he can get something done if you help him? >> we do help him. he's never come to me for help. i've always vonn tilunteered it >> he doesn't pick up the phone and call you and say i'm going to need your help? >> no. it's self-evident. but it is unfortunate. because this is not 30 or 40 tea party activists wagging the dog. this is 130 or 140 republicans, either tea party or scared to death of the tea party. 144 of them voted against opening government as i mentioned before. this is not a little bit. this is the overwhelming majority of the republicans who are voting wrong. whether it's food stamps, whether it's opening government, whether it's the defaulting on the full faith and credit, whether it's immigration, whatever it is. but i hope that he will bring -- allow an ill grags bill to come to the floor. we stand ready. we have three republicans and about 185 democrats on our

immigration bill. we're ready to go with that. and that is with a path to citizenship. >> all right. so, final question. i know, you know, we think of you as this wonderful leader for women. and when you were in seneca falls, you wonderfully had your colleagues come up on stage and sort of share the credit. but i learned a little something else about you in terms of your love of chocolate ice cream. and your daughter, christine, shared with me that your grandchildren sometimes will say, well, mimi gets to eat ice cream for breakfast when they're trying to get ice cream for breakfast. so, you know. >> well, i have nothing against ice cream for breakfast. if it's very, very dark chocolate. and i've always said to them, this is where i am in life. where you are, you should be having something much fresher for breakfast. >> something healthy first. >> never underestimate the power of chocolate. very, very dark chocolate. >> amen to that. thank you, again, so much for being with us.

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obstruction. we can no doubt expect more shenanigans on the affordable care act rollout. tea party darlings rand paul and ted cruz are duking it out for the title of most beloved tea partier. all this while president obama hits the campaign trail to raise money for democrats for the 2014 mid-terms. here is hoping that relief is on the way. here to discuss, from the "washington post," dana milbank. "usa today" columnist and nbc latino contributor, raul reyes. thank you for being here. i want to start with an interview i just did with leader pelosi. one of the things that she mentioned, i want to start with you on immigration, she seems pretty optimistic. suggesting they've got three republicans on the democratic bill. that includes a path to citizenship. it sounds like the feeling is the numbers should be there. >> yeah. you know, the numbers are there. i believe the number of house republicans who are onboard for immigration reform with a path to citizenship is now up to 29. we now have three republicans

signing on to this house democrat bill. so the pressure is still there. it was very interesting this week. because i believe it was tuesday, there were all these lobbyists and leaders descending on washington for immigration reform. they were all conservatives. the pressure is there. it's just the house leadership has not been able to wrap their minds around that -- wrap their minds around the fact this inaction, this immobility is not a feasible long-term solution. it's not going to go away. certainly not, you know, with this core of very emboldened, energized young activists. they need to do something. they do still have time. i agree 100% with her. >> that's good. she ought to know, right? dana, i want to play for you a little sound on the budget. that's obviously the other big topic that's coming up. i do think that there is still some nervousness among democrats as to whether or not the president will stand firm. but let's take a listen to what she said. >> well, i think we all stay there together. if you have revenue on the

table, you can come to a bigger agreement to reduce the deficit, to grow the economy, to do so in a fiscally sound way. >> previously part of what worked for democrats during the shutdown is that they were all on the same page. we've seen before concerns that, you know, when we were talking about a grand bargain the last time, the president was willing to make concessions that many in the democratic caucus did not agree with. do we think they're all going to stay in the same place this time? >> well, the early indications aren't very good, karen. you saw right after the -- sort of the temporary budget deal, the president was out there. he was being vague about what he wanted. he wasn't saying, here's what i want. -- faithful in the house and in the senate has been when he's been forceful in his leadership. we're not seeing that right now which leads a lot of people to believe that he won't take that kind of firm stand again.

that probably bodes poorly for the idea of getting some sort of a grand bargain. because it's going to require the president to get in there, say exactly what he wants and fight for it. >> right. so i want to switch gears a little bit to two of my favorites to talk about, rand and ted. rand and ted's excellent adventure. dana, i know this week you wrote -- seems like they may have a tough day on tuesday. what struck me with rand paul, so you've got this dynamic where ted cruz, we learned, privately is saying that rand paul can't get elected because his father says crazy thinks. think about some of the things that ted cruz's father has said. but more importantly now, rand paul has gotten his backup where monday and tuesday my colleague, rachel maddow reported that rand paul's wikipedia plagiarism in the movies gattica and deliver. he gave an interview to jorge ramos

haters have been with him for year. rachel says good luck. today rand comes on abc and he says basically the people who are attacking him are hackers and haters. i want to play that for you and then let's talk about it. >> i think the spoken word shouldn't be held to the same sort of standard that you have if you're giving a scientific paper. i've written scientific papers. i know how to footnote things. but we've never footnoted speeches. if that's the standard i'm going to be held to, yes, we will change some things. but i think i'm being unfairly targeted by a bunch of hacks and haters. i'm just not going to put up with people casting aas a -- ths on my character. >> i found oral citation guidelines. lots of information online about how to do this. curious to hear your reaction. i think he's thinking there's going to be some kind of duel between he and rachel next week. >> i think it was terrific just

in that very clip. he is basically acknowledging and saying, look, you should not have any faith whatsoever in what i'm saying. you know, plagiarism is one thing. he's plagiarized something accurately, it does appear, at least in this case, wikipedia got it right on the films. he's not particularly relying on any reliable standard for what he's saying. i think that's fine. rand paul should stick with it in all his speeches and we'll just, you know, take it with a grain of sand knowing it may be true, it may not be true. >> apparently it's not just speeches. as buzz feed reported, raul, apparently he lifted whole portions of heritage foundation report for his book. so it's more -- that's a pretty big -- that's not just saying, oh, i maybe just didn't use the right citation in my speech. when you lift something out from, you know, a report to your book, and then you get so sensitive about it, how does he think he's going to survive a

presidential campaign? >> let's keep it totally real for one second. if you are a ninth grader or a college freshman, you know it is not okay to go to wikipedia and then just copy, cut, paste it on to your own paper. everybody knows that. that is an indefensible position. he needs to just apologize and move on. you know, not for nothing, but i wouldn't want him to get in any type of argument with rachel maddow. she usually knows what she's talking about. >> just saying. >> rachel maddow is not running for president. she can take whatever he wants to throw at her. but he should really move past this. you know, i want to reference something that nancy pelosi mentioned earlier. because this is their anniversary of hurricane sandy. both of these two, ted cruz and rand paul, voted against the aid for storm victims in this area. as everyone in this area knows, it was so devastating, the effects, people are still feeling the effects. yet they still come up here for their fundraisers. >> of course. >> totally -- that is beyond the pale. >> quickly to you, dana, it also strikes me that if you're going

to, you know, lift full sections out of a book, i mean, you got to learn a little bit more than scientific citations, right? >> well, look, i -- i have every expectation that rand paul will recover. it only took joe biden, what, 20 years. i think in 2036 this man is going to be just fine. >> all right. well, we shall see. thank you, raul and dana milbank. thanks. next, the rallying cry for states' rights reaches deafening levels under our first black president. coincidence? that's coming up. [ woman ] too weak.

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oh boy... there you go... morty just summed it up. the next 44 years we'll be fine. next, the battle cry for states' rights. it's more like a dog whistle. and it's a very busy sunday. we've got a lot more ahead. >> are you going to be willing to outwork and outhustle the other folks? because i guarantee you, terry mcauliffe is going to be out

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and we've seen the assault on the tenth amendment as the federal government's power has extended beyond and beyond and beyond the limits. >> all roads lead back to the state. >> i'm afraid that president obama may have this king complex sort of developing. >> president obama's inauguration is on monday. but does he actually believe in the constitution he'll swear to defend? >> now is the time to restore the promise of america. >> let's get it together, tea party america! let's take back our country! >> we've got to take our country back! the president doesn't believe in the constitution!

he's undermining the tenth amendment! states rights, baby, are back. while states righters would like you to think it's all about federalism and taxes, let's not forget the cry for states rights a dog whistle dating back to the civil war and brought back to life during the civil rights movement. is it any coincidence this rallying cries have intensified in the five years since barack obama raised his right hand and became president of the united states. after all, we didn't hear any of this during the bush administration. no kwqualms about it, there's a racial element to this movement. this resurgence can be seen in the headlines of conservative organizations like heritage action and the family research counc council. it's more than headlines and rhetoric. it's turning into real action at the state level. 20 states have signed laws opting out of the president's health care law. in 37 states laws have been introduced to combat any federal gun legislation. and just this year alone, 30

states have introduced stricter or new voter id laws. joining me now to discuss the history of the resurgence of the states rights movement in this country is sam townhouse "new york times" in the and msnbc contributor james peterson. thank yo thanks to you both. james, when we talk about states rights, people don't realize it's a very dark history. certainly there's the civil war. but then there's also when ronald reagan in 1980, you know, gave his speech at the county fair in mississippi, he knew exactly what he was doing. so when you hear it today, there is a bridge to some of that very same racism. >> absolutely. ronald reagan's announcement was just miles away from where a historic and unfortunately tragic murder of emmitt till took place. a dog whistle not yus to states rights and the history of the confederacy but white supremacy and racism and the violence of

white supremacy. it was not so well coded at that particular point in time. everything you listen to is really, really important. look at the different battle froonts that progressives have got to sort of deal with over the course of the next decade or so. immigration. women's rights. voter id and voters rights. the affordable care act itself. all those things are being fought really at the state level. >> it strikes me, a lot of language that we hear from a number of these governors, you know, this language that president obama is somehow superseding his authority. he doesn't understand the constitution. they're protecting their states from, you know, the king or what have you. it's just ridiculous. >> well, you know, one of the interesting things i noticed, karen, i was reading some stories about it, is one of the great defenders of states rights, well, we're taking our cue from rosa parks. rosa parks was protesting against the state and local

ordinance. when we heard about the incursions of the federal government, what we forget is where a lot of the oppression has happened is at the state level. you know, there was a great libertarian figure forgotten now named carl hess. he said a long time ago, i don't understand why conservatives say they want a more efficient local government. or they say they like local government better because it's more efficient. he said if you're a libertarian, you don't want efficient government. you want to be free where it matters most. and it's really at the state and local level where there has been so much oppression, so many rights withheld, so many ordinances that were unjust. it feels a little disingenuous for people to pull states rights out as a way of guaranteeing people's freedoms. >> right. i want to just pull something out that actually you wrote, sam. i think particularly in the age of president obama, it has -- the language has taken on a slightly different twist.

again, it's not just about taxes and protecting people's rights. but it feels like there's an undercurrent that is more about attacking the legitimacy of president obama. you wrote in the new republic, the nullifying spirit has been revived as a form of governance, or more accurately anti-governance. its stronghold is the tea party. we see it in continuing challenges to obama care, in senator rand pall's promise to nullify anything the president does to impose new gun controls. each is presented as a practical attempt to find a better answer, but as a constitutional demand for restoration of the nation to its hallowed prior self. it's not a coincidence that the resurgence of nullification is happening while our first african-american president is in office. >> well, a lot of it's coming from the south, karen. we know that. back in 2008, somebody said john mccain was just elected president of the confederacy. that's where a lot of these states are. there's no question about it. also, i remember grover norquist

invited me down to washington the night of the famous 2010ins. votes were coming in. he said forget about congress. we're winning at the state level. >> james, that's a very important point. last point to you. the focus is on the states. again, the tone of the rhetoric and the sort of focus on president obama, it does feel like it is very much about undermining this president. >> it's certainly racialized not just along the coordinates of the president but a long along of these demographic shifts we've talked about. remember, there is no hallowed prior america. there is no getting back to an america that hasn't had issue of oppression, racism, sexism, classism. at the end of the day we have to look at the bottle fronts clearly and be honest about it. when republicans and folks on the right look at demographic shifts, it's not just about president obama. it's about the coalition that put him in office. it's about the 11 million undocumented folk here in this nation. it's about the rise of women and the emergence of single women. they're seeing ways in which their sort of base is eroding in

this particular demographic environment. >> they're refusing to accept that you can't take it back because we're all here. >> we're all here. >> thank you james peterson and sam townhouse. that does it for me. thanks for joining us. a very special thanks to leader pelosi for spending time with us this afternoon. see you back here next saturday at 4:00 eastern. an important message for americans eligible an important message for for medicare. the annual enrollment period is now open. now is the time to find the coverage that's right for you ...at the right price. the way to do that is to explore your options.

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